[Log started by inky Tue Aug 3 11:41:46 1999] Adam says (to Ps), "I think it depends on how much of history you think is variable and how much is (in retrospect) inevitable" Rob asks, "Why don't you say it's Jack Benny for making radio immensely popular?" Iain says, "Never heard of him." Iain says, "And you've probably never heard of Reith, maybe." Psmith says (to Adam), "Right. Which is moot, since there's no way to experiment." Psmith says (to Adam), "so we have to work with what we've got." Rob says (to Iain), "I bet you have heard of Jack Benny and just don't know it." Iain says (to Rob), "This could well be true." Iain says, "You've deftly probed my weak point. But please don't probe any further." Rob keeps re-reading Time's definition to see if it makes anything click. Iain says, "Has anyone read that book, _The 100 most influential people in history_? Can't remember who wrote it, but it's very interesting." Iain says, "He argues his case well." BrenBarn goes east. (From Torbjorn) Iain says, "And he includes me." Iain says, "Heh." Adam says (to Ps), "Let me put it this way. My assertion -- obviously, there can be no proof -- is this:" Iain says, "IIRC, he has Mohammed as no.1, Jesus (or Peter?) as no.2, and Newton as no.3." Adam says (to Ps), "World without Marconi, Einstein, etc.: pretty much the same. World without Hitler: world wildly different." Iain says (to Adam), "Whoa! Hang on there." Adam says, "There is one other argument which shoots this out of the water, though." Adam says, "To wit: butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil in 1888, Hitler never conceived" Iain nods. (From Spatch) Adam says, "But that one begins with 'sez you' so I won't count it." inky says (to Spatch), "hee" inky says, "I don't know if I agree with that" inky says, "also, ObBook: Making History, by Stephen Fry" Iain says (to Adam), "Only if you put Mitch Fiegenbaum up as one of the most influential, of course. :)" Psmith says (to inky), "Yay. Good book." Iain says, "(chaos theory researcher)" Rob says, "also, world without Einstein pretty much the same, not necessarily so" inky says, "it's entirely possible if hitler hadn't been around, we would have picked some other iconic tragedy" inky says, "eg, stalin" Rob says, "You can scratch a line on a chalkboard from his work to atomic weapons and nuclear superpowers." Adam says, "Right, but my selection of Hitler is more or less unrelated to the Holocaust" inky says, "mm?\" Rob says, "however, my sense is that Adam is making the best argument on the table at the moment." Adam says, "I'm thinking in terms of dismantling overt colonialism and setting the stage for the cold war" inky | "Sea gulls are gay, some monkeys are gay, it's normal among all animals," I inky | say. Actually I'm not sure about the monkeys. Iain says, "Why? That was tremendously influential. Lots of people forced to emigrate to the US." inky says, "..nobody's sure about the monkeys!" Iain says (to Adam), "Out of context, that would be scary." Adam says, "The former, in that by trashing Europe, the European countries no longer had the resources to maintain vast empires" Adam says (to Iain), "Hee hee hee -- I guess so" Iain says, "Don't think Hitler had much to do with that." (From inky) Adam says (to Iain) "But don't worry, I'm going to finish the novel first." Iain says, "Europe was doomed since 1900. Name Bismarck if you're going to name anyone." Rob says, "hee" Adam says, "The latter by provoking the arms race, indirectly strengthening the USSR, etc." BrenBarn arrives from the east. (From Spatch) High school lacrosse player says "Those sea gulls are SO GAY. Got any Alka-Seltzer?" Psmith says, "Without Hitler, Stalin would have strengthened the USSR all by himself very nicely, thank you." Iain asks, "BTW, have you all read _Last and First Men_?" Iain says, "Future history, written before Hitler." Iain says, "Interestingly, Stapeldon stil has europe destorying itself in a war." Iain says, "This time between Britain and France." Adam says, "Interesting." Limax has connected to ifMUD. Adam says, "Probably my best work as a graduate student was on Nazis-Won-WWII alternate history fiction." Iain says, "He has America coming to dominance, but weakened by wars with other powers." Rob says, "a war of sexual farce vs. kitchen sink melodrama" Limax arrives from the east. Limax says, "Morning" inky asks (to Adam), "analysis of themes in them?" inky says, "heya li" Iain says (to limax), "Hi." Adam says (to inky), "Right" Adam says (to inky), "At the end, I got to include a bravura moment" inky asks, "bravura?" (From Iain) Adam says, "I discussed the use of bras in _Man in the High Castle_." Rob says, "boo" inky says, "hmm. salon seems to have this whole genre of pieces by writers about the wacky people at some job they've had" Rob meditates heavily on Nazis-lost-WWII / Nazis-might-have-won-WWII. Adam says, "It went (summarized), 'In Fatherland, Harris [the author] contends that Nazi Germany was doomed because one cannot build a nation based on genocide. But there is a real-world counterexample: the United States of America'" inky says (to Adam), "yeow." BrenBarn goes east. Spatch says, "Wow." Iain says (to Rob), "Hmm? Go read the books, then." Iain lags. Iain says (to Adam), "yay/hmm." Rob's counter to that would be sharpening the definition of 'based on' -- it's not written into the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution that we were going to build this country by slaughtering entire races. Adam says (to Rob), "Well, it makes more sense after a discussion of the book" Rob says, "figured." Adam says, "Fatherland is set in 1964" Adam says, "A detective discovers something fishy's going on" Limax has read Fatherland. BrenBarn arrives from the east. Limax says, "The movie wasn't as good." (From inky) Detective says "Something's missing .. twelve million people!" Adam says, "He eventually discovers that the Jews were not 'sent away to the East' as the leadership says, but rather all killed" Iain says, "Aha, unlagged." Limax asks (to Adam), "You're writing an article on alternative WWII fiction?" Adam says, "And the book basically says, 'This revelation dooms Nazi Germany, for people will be outraged, bring down the government, etc.'" BrenBarn goes home. BrenBarn has disconnected from ifMUD. Iain says, "Right." Adam says (to Doug), "This was a seminar paper from '96" Iain says, "Not sure I agree with that, but I also don't see the direct parallel with the states" Limax says (to Adam), "I see." Rob says (to Adam), "aha, I see where you're coming from" Rob says, "'Hey, the US slaughtered everyone!' 'never mind that, I'm late for work.'" Adam says, "And my counterexample is, we *know* that the native people of this continent were wiped out by the European settlers. Few are trying to burn down the White House over it" Rob says, "'What's on TV?'" Iain asks, "Um, who did the US slaughter? The native americans?" Adam says (to Iain), "Right" Rob says, "Yes." Ryan is done with lunch now. Iain says, "Lagged. Right." Iain says (to Adam), "But that wasn't just a couple of decades ago. And it wasn't done in the same way, IIRC." inky says, "mm" inky says, "I'm trying to decide if the differences I'd point out in the situations are the same ones an alternagerman might point out" Rob says, "heh" Iain says, "Although, hmm, the whites did introduce 'scalping' and stuff." Rob says, "and smallpox" Spatch says, "Hell, read up on the Trail of Tears." inky says (to Iain), "and lone ranger movies" Rob says (to inky), "I was ruminating there a minute ago" Iain says (to inky), "I think cutting people up is a bit worse than that TV program." Iain says, "YMMV." Psmith says, "Also, the Native Americans weren't exactly "noble savages". They were just as much out for what they could get." Adam says, "Well, in the encomieda system, the natives were systematically worked to death in the mines" Rob says, "that even very very recently we were still selling this weird version of native peoples to US citizens and children" inky says (to Ps), "yeah, granted. but I don't think you mean that excuses anything" Adam says (to Ps), "Well, the point isn't that one race or another is superior or more noble, etc. One killed the vast majority of another" Psmith says (to inky), "Of course not. Just that neither side were entirely innocent." inky asks, "do any of the alternate histories having the nazis present the jews in some sort of idealized fashion?" inky says, "mm" Adam says (to inky), "That's a fabulous idea" Iain says, "Hmmm." Adam says (to inky), "Really. I haven't seen that one, and you've really got a story there" inky says, "huh." Iain says, "So they'd have Disney films about the Wandering Jew and stuff. Could work." Rob says, "wow." Iain says, "Or their equivalent of Disney." Rob says (to Iain), "oh, they'd have disney" Rob says, "heh" Iain says, "Hee." Adam imagines a Jew seeing a discarded can of Zyklon B in a river, and turning to the camera with a single tear dripping down his cheek inky says, "oh my" Rob says, "wwwww" Iain says, "Peter Pan and the Gang of Jews." Rob says, "This conversation sure got my mind off the petty troubles it was dealing with before I logged in." Spatch says, "It's the Lone Ranger and his trusty sidekick Schlemiel" Adam splutters Iain says (to Spatch), "Whoa." Adam says, "BTW, someone log this, please" Rob says, "been logging" Adam says, "Oh, rock" Torbjorn says (to inky), "I haven't read it myself, and I don't remember the title, but this one might count: Someone on the radio was talking about a book where time passes backwards for the protagonist. Apparently, towards the end it had Nazis bringing dead bodies to life at Auschwitz." Iain asks (to Adam), "You serious about doing something with this?" Adam says, "Well, it's inky's idea" Iain says (to Adam), "You're the guy who jumped on it. :)" inky logs. inky says (to Torb), "yeah, i've read that. time's arrow" Adam asks, "By... Martin Amis?" Iain says, "Martin Amis, right? Yes." inky says, "(of course, that might not be the only one)" inky says, "I believe so" Torbjorn says (to inky), "The title sounds familiar." Adam asks, "Was it good?" inky says, "mm" Adam says, "I believe Liza is a big Amis fan" Iain says, "Never read it. Heard very very mixed reviews of it." inky says, "I make it not to enjoy books I'm assigned to read" Iain says, "It got nominated for a Booker, but didn't win." Adam says, "Dammit, I need to read more fiction. I haven't read anything" inky says, "er. make it a policy" Torbjorn says, "Sounds like a serious version of Zero Sum Game." Rob says, "Whenever the Times crossword says 'Time's Arrow' as a clue, the answer is AMIS, that's all I know." Torbjorn says (to Rob), "I thought AMIS was a text editor." Adam says, "I thought AMIS was the show the Frenchies tune into to see Le Ross and La Rachel hook up" Rob thud Iain says, "I don't like Amis for the dodgy reason that he looks like a grumpy bastard in all the pictures I've seen of him." Rob says, "the Frenchies, heh" Iain says, "And I've read some of his short stories, which were pants." Rob asks (to Iain), "and you look different how..?" Kiz says, "back soon" Kiz goes home. "The Faerie of the Fine Print is saddened to announce the death of The Ear No One Reads." Iain asks (to Rob), "Yes, but Liza isn't a big fan of me, is she?" Iain says, ":)" Rob says, "good rebound" inky says (to Iain), "I hear she's fond of anyone not wearing pants" Iain says, "Sigh." Iain says, "Must go. Shop." (From Iain) Iain says, "Or I suppose I could get a carry-out from the Jew restaurant." Alex exclaims, "Awwk! Log started!" Iain goes home. No toilet is 100% safe. I am willing to accept some risk. Rob says, "You know, if I simply switched the positions of the printer and the minitower on the desk, people wouldn't have to walk so much around my shoulder and behind me to pick up their printouts." [Log finished Tue Aug 3 11:42:04 1999]