Re: Honorific, degree, name and label

[Tuan V Nguyen <t.nguyen@garvan.unsw.edu.au>]

Hello anh Ca, AiViet and folks,

	Welcome back anh Ca! you still have not reported what 
you had eaten and drunk in America to us yet. I enjoyed your 
"go?i ca'" very much. If you go to Australia again, I will 
ask you to prepare one dish for me :)

	Labels such honorific, title and degrees can be used in 
certain circumstances and places with certain effectiveness. 
For example, medical doctors love to display their fellowship 
and post-graduate training certificates to their patients as 
a sign of seniority in the profession. To me, this is OK. 

	On the other hand, I do not think people such as 
mathematicians, physicists and the likes need to show their 
degree or title when they write a book or journal article. 
Their work, knowledge and intelligence can be assessed by 
what they write. But, if they are involved in consulting 
works, then some indication of their seniority and skills 
(via degrees and honorific) could be used.

	It always looks good when there are lot of Profs and 
Drs in an academic department. I know many departments around 
Australia and in the US, which list many Profs and Drs, but 
these fellows have in fact minimum involvement (a few hours a 
year) with the department. This practice of showing off 
honorific, title and degrees is simply aimed at winning 
grants, and more practically, make them look good. I think 
that this is a deception.

	Let me give you an analogy. A recent study published in 
Science found that Western men generally prefer women with 
large breasts and broad hips. To them, large breasts promise 
an ample supply of milk, while broad hips promise an easy 
birth. But, of course, this could be a deception, because 
large breasts could result from obesity (or silicon implant) 
and not reproductive fitness. Similarly, degrees and titles 
could be misleading, not reflecting the true value of a 
person.

	And to this end, I agree with you completely that 
sometimes the "quality of one's works is not as highly 
appreciated as his title". This happens a lot in research 
environment. In Australia (and I believe in the US as well), 
applicants with a BS or MS behind their names have a very 
slim chance of getting grants, even though their proposed 
works are excellent.

	In Vietnam, the situation is slightly different. We, 
Vietnamese, value education profoundly. As a result, people 
tend to respect men and women with "ky~ su+", "lua^.t su+", 
"cu+? nha^n", "tie^'n si~", etc in front of their names, and 
look down at common people who are without degree or title. 

	Should we always respect people with degree? I do not 
think so. In fact, I think that the common people has been 
deceived for so long. I also think that some of our academics 
have been "kho^n nha` da.y cho+." for so long. What I mean is 
that they have been pretty good in congratulation themselves 
in Vietnamese press, but have made little significant 
contribution to the world science. 

	Almost 60 years ago (1938), DDa`o Duy Anh has commented 
about our characteristics as follows: "Ve^` ti'nh cha^'t tinh 
tha^`n thi` ngu+o+`i VN dda.i kha'i tho^ng minh, nhu+ng xu+a 
nay tha^'y i't ngu+o+`i co' tri' tue^. lo^~i la.c phi 
thu+o+`ng. Su+'c ky' u+'c thi` pha't dda.t la('m, ma` gia`u 
tri' nghe^. thua^.t ho+n tri' khoa ho.c, gia`u tru+.c gia'c 
ho+n lua^.n ly'. Pha^`n nhie^`u ngu+o+`i co' ti'nh ham ho.c, 
song thi'ch va(n chu+o+ng phu` hoa ho+n la` thu+.c ho.c, 
thi'ch tha`nh sa'o va` hi`nh thu+'c ho+n la` tu+ tu+o+?ng 
hoa.t ddo^.ng ... Ca?m gia'c ho+i cha^.m cha.p, song gio?i 
chi.u ddau ddo+'n cu+.c kho^? va` hay nha^~n nhu.c . Ti'nh 
khi' cu~ng ho+i no^ng no^~i, kho^ng be^`n chi', hay tha^'t 
vo.ng, HAY KHOE KHOANG TRANG HOA`NG BE^` NGOA`I, U+A HU+ DANH 
va` thi'ch cho+i co+` ba.c ... Na~o sa'ng ta'c thi i't, 
nhu+ng ba('t chu+o+'c thi'ch u+'ng va` dung ho'a thi` ra^'t 
ta`i ..." [uppercase words are highlighted by me]

	It seems to me that his words are still true.

	Admittedly, We, Vietnamese as a group, has modest 
presence in the international science, compared with the 
Chinese and the Indian. OK, you can say that they have more 
people than us; but, the fact remain: we have no Nobel 
laureat in science. My advice to young lads in this audience 
(I am still young anyway :)) is to make more contribution and 
increase your presence in the international scientific 
community whenever and wherever you can.

	If I have offended you in anyway or what I have said do 
not sit easily with your thought, my apology.


	T V Nguyen


>>        Again, I agree with you on this. I, for the record, 
>>have commented that the use of labels, e.g. title, 
>>honorific, degree, etc as a prefix and/or appendix to one's 
>>name is not necessary. Our names are what matter most. The 
>>one thing that I found rather amusing about our academic 
>>fellows in VN is that they tend to adore title and 
>>honorific. In front of me now is a math book which was 
>>written by a gentleman (which I do not want to name here) 
>>with title "Gia'o Su+ Tie^'n Si~ 1" and another with "Gia'o 
>>Su+  Tie^'n Si~ 2" ... Are there such things in VN?
>>
>>
>>        T V Nguyen

>Dear Anh Tuan,
>
>Don't you think that that those Profs., Drs. need that title to win
>a job and some money. Our society is still a "khoa cu+?" society,
>and if someone does not show his title, very few people can trust
>him. Seems that quality of one's works is not as highly appreciated  
>as his title.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Ca.

>Hello Anh Ca,

>  Just to mention one: the intellectuals wearing the titles but they 
>don't really respect them. The titles can be used only to threaten the 
>laymen. It is really easy to hear comments among Prof.s Drs. that " 
>Tha(`ng a^'y TS GS ma` ngu nhu+ lo+n.". The "terminology" : "Lo+n. con"
>mentioned by anh AnHAi was certainly found by intellectuals.
>
>  The title is used only for threatening the laymen. The effect of the 
>excessive use will be lost by time like anti-biotic. What is the danger 
>of that? The intellectual class will loose the prestige as the standard
>of the moral values of a society. If a society does not have that, how 
>can we blame the horrible crimes as posted yesterday concerning rapes, child
>sexual abuses. The raison d'e^tre of the intellectual class in VN is not 
>to generate a new technology or world famous invention ( at least not so 
>urgent), but to keep a stable value system.( That is why Ba'o Va(n Nghe^. 
>has not attacked the corruption in the intellectual class).

>
>Cheers
>Aiviet
>
>   
>