Re: Mo^ hi`nh li.ch su+? Re: Ba('c Ngu.y ... Help!?!

[Thach Nguyen <esse@angband.org>]

 Dear ba'c Hoa`,
  Thank you for replying.
  Chu? nghi~a Hoa`ng dde^', hay no^m na Hie^.p chu?ng quo^'c Trung Hoa,
la` sa?n pha^?m cu?a "bo.n ba`nh tru+o+'ng Trung Quo^'c" mo+'i :-)) (ba'o
chi' 'ta' co' co`n du`ng cu.m tu+` na`y kho^ng hi? :-))
  Ca'c ddo^`ng chi' la'ng gie^`ng Trung quo^'c du`ng chu? nghi~a Hoa`ng
dde^' dde^? rationalize vie^.c suppressing nationality identity cu?a Ta^y
Ta.ng, Ta^n Cu+o+ng, va` No^.i Mo^ng la` chuye^.n ga^`n dda^y . Tuy
nhie^n, IMHO, tru+o+`ng ho+.p co' kha'c vo+'i "ngu~ ho^` loa.n Hoa" va`
ca'c trie^`u Kim, Thanh, Ta^y Ha., Lie^u .
  Cu~ng nhu+ ba'c co' no'i, kha'i nie^.m "Trung Nguye^n" hi`nh tha`nh tu+`
ddo+`i Ha'n. Tu+` ddo+`i Vu~ dde^' mo+? mang ve^` phi'a Nam va` hi`nh
tha`nh kha'i nie^.m ranh ddi.a Nam ba('c (ranh ddi.a phu+o+ng ba('c dda~
co' tu+` tho+`i Lie^.t quo^'c xa^y Tru+o=`ng tha`nh).
Du+o+'i trie^`u Vu~ dde^', tuy Ve^. Thanh, Hoa('c Khu+' Be^.nh dda'nh
dde^'n  ga^`n Eastern Border cu?a La ma~, nhu+ng ddo' chi? la` cuo^.c ca`n
que't cho^'ng du mu.c, va` thu+' nhi` la` cu+o+'p bo'c chu+' kho^ng pha?i
dde^? mo+? mang Empire. Ba(`ng chu+'ng la` que^n Ha'n cha(?ng a'p dda(.t
he^. tho^'ng tho^'ng tri. le^n ca'c vu`ng be^n kia Gobi desert nhu+ ho.
dda~ la`m vo+'i Vietnam. Va` cu+' va`i na(m, du` Han Empire cu?a Vu~ dde^'
is so large on paper, da^n Hung no^ la.i cu+' ta^'n co^ng va`o Nam
Tru+o+`ng tha`nh. Kha'i nie^.m B('c cu+o+ng kho^ng he^` thay ddo^?i: nam
tru+o+`ng tha`nh la` Ha'n, ba('c la` ho^`
  Tuy nhie^n, khi ngu~ ho^` ta^'n co^ng va`o Trung Hoa, chie^'m to+'i
ga^`n ma.n ba('c so^ng Tru+o+`ng Giang, kho^ng nhu+ Hung no^ chi? raid
Han's border, nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i Ho^` na`y o+? la.i, tho^'ng tri. va`
ddo6`ng ho'a, vo+'i ra^'t nhie^`u a?nh hu+o+?ng le^n tie^'n trie^?n li.ch
su+? Trung hoa trong ca'c tho+`i dda.i sau . Ne^n co' le? mo^'i
lie^n he^. giu+~a Ngu~ Ho^` va` Ha'n gio^'ng mo^'i lie^n he^. Dorians -
Hellenes trong li.ch su+? Hy La.p ho+n la` Ha'n - Vie^.t . Bo+?i vi`
decendents cu?a Ngu~ Ho^` co' cu`ng national identity vo+'i ngu+o+`i Ha'n
. 
   Ve^` Ma~n to^.c ( Kim, Thanh) thi` dda~ sinonized he^'t, kho^ng co`n
identity cu?a rie^ng ho. nu+~a .   

   To'm la.i, Ma~n va` Ngu+~ Ho^` ne^n ddu+'ng cu`ng Ha'n trong Li.ch su+?
Trung hoa vi` ho. co' nationality identity cu~ng nhu+ ngu+o+`i Ha'n,
kho^ng nhu+ da^n to^.c ca'c vu`ng Ta^y Ta.ng, Ta^n Cu+o+ng ...


On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Hoa Nguyen wrote:

> Cha`o ba'c Thach Nguyen,
> La^u qua' kho^ng tha^'y ba'c le^n tie^'ng ba`n ve^` su+?. To^i xin go'p va`i
> y' nghi~ rie^ng ve^` ca^u chuye^.n thu' vi. du+o+'i dda^y.
> 
> 
> >>    Theo y' to^i chu'ng ta va^~n co`n bi. a?nh hu+o+?ng lo^'i nghi~ cu~
> >> ve^` chuye^. "Ngu~ Ho^` Loa.n Hoa". To^i co' ca?m tu+o+?ng Trung quo^'c
> >> nga`y nay la` ho+.p nha^'t cu?a Ha'n, Ho^` va` Nam Trung Hoa.
> >
> >     Cho^? na`y thi` ddo^`ng y'  vo+'i ba'c. Va` ngay ca?
> >da^n Ha'n cu~ng la` gio^'ng lai giu+~a da^n ca'c nu+o+'c tho+`i Chie^'n
> >quo^'c, Ma^n, Chie^'t and who knows what else (So+?, Ngo^, Vie^.t cha(?ng
> >cu`ng gio^'ng vo+'i con cha'u cu?a Chu, ngay Ta^`n cu~ng la` Nhung Ho^`
> >mo^.t pha^`n).
> 
> To^i nghi~ tu+` ddo+`i Ha'n,  "Trung Nguye^n" dda~ hi`nh tha`nh  mo^.t vu`ng
> dda^'t co' bo+` co~i minh ba.ch, co' va(n ho'a rie^ng bie^.t, du` tru+o+'c
> ddo' la` no+i ta^.p ho+.p nhie^`u nho'm  da^n to^.c kha'c nhau, trong ddo'
> dda'ng ke^? co' nho'm Ba'ch Vie^.t o+? phi'a Nam. Vi` va^.y, Hung No^ ddo^'i
> vo+'i Chie^u Qua^n cu~ng gio^'ng nhu+ Giao chi? (La.c Vie^.t) ddo^'i vo+'i
> Ma~ Vie^.n, dde^`u la` dda^'t Ho^`, Man kho^ng thuo^.c Ha'n to^.c.
> Sau na`y ngu+o+`i Kim thuo^.c Ma~n to^.c va`o chie^'m mie^`n Ba('c cu?a nha`
> To^'ng, cu~ng pha?i ke^? la` gio^'ng "ngoa.i lai" ddo^'i vo+'i ngu+o+`i
> "Trung" Hoa, nhu+ ngu+o+`i nu+o+'c Ta^y Ha. thuo^.c Ta.ng, hay ngu+o+`i
> Mo^ng cu?a Tha`nh Ca't Tu+ Ha?n. To^i cho la` xo'a he^'t su+. pha^n bie^.t
> ve^` nguo^`n go^'c chu?ng to^.c  la` "ro+i " va`o chi'nh sa'ch nu+o+'c
> "Trung Hoa la` Mo^.t" hie^.n nay. Chu'ng ta kho^ng pha?i la` "ngu+o+`i Ba('c
> Kinh" vie^.c gi` pha?i la`m the^'. Ai cu~ng bie^'t ngu+o+`i Dda`i Loan ba?n
> ddi.a kha'c ngu+o+`i Trung Hoa lu.c ddi.a, chi? ve^` chi'nh tri. la` ho.
> cu`ng chung mo^.t nu+o+'c. Cho ne^n ddu+'ng ve^` ma(.t li.ch su+?, pha?i co'
> can dda?m nha^.n ra su+. kha'c nhau ve^` chu?ng to^.c, ve^` va(n ho'a cu?a
> ca'c gio^'ng Ha'n, Ma~n, Mo^ng, Ho^`i, Ta.ng. Ddie^`u ddo' xe't ra cu~ng
> cha(?ng co' ha.i gi`, nhu+ Hoa ky` va^~n tu+. nha^.n la` Hie^.p chu?ng
> quo^'c, hay nu+o+'c Anh va^~n nha^.n bi. ca'c gio^'ng German, Viking, Frank
> tu+` ngoa`i va`o xa^m chie^'m tru+o+'c khi tro+? tha`nh mo^.t chu?ng to^.c
> rie^ng, co' mo^.t ngo^n ngu+~ rie^ng (xin lo^~i ne^'u sai, to^i kho^ng
> thuo^.c su+? Anh quo^'c).
> Nguye^~n Ho`a
> >     Co' le? vi` trong previous post du`ng chu+~ "Ta`u" ne^n bi. ba'c
> >hie^?u la^`m, actually by Ta`u I was meaning Ha'n trong giai ddoa.n ddo'.
> >Intermarriage giu+~a Ha'n, Ho^` pho^? bie^'n tu+` tho+`i ba('c Ngu.y va`
> >dde^'n DDu+o+`ng thi` su+. kha'c bie^.t kho^ng co`n, dda(.c bie^.t trong
> >nhu+~ng gia ddi`nh cu+. to^.c Ba('c Hoa (DDu+o+`ng Ly' The^' Da^n mo^.t
> >pha^`n Ha'n va` ma^'y pha^`n Ho^`) va` ngay ca? da^n "Ho^` inside the
> >wall" cu~ng tha`nh Ha'n ho'a, ca'c ho. DDo^.c co^, Vu~ va(n, A^u du+o+ng
> >dde^`u la` con cha'u cu?a "ngu~ Ho^`".
> >
> >>
> >>    La`m gi` co' chuye^. Ho^` Loa.n Hoa.
> >
> >  Ne^'u nhi`n tre^n phu+o+ng die^.n toa`n cu.c cu?a li.ch su+? thi`
> >so sa'nh Hoa Ho^` kho^ng to^`n ta.i, nhu+ng ne^'u nhi`n tre^n phu+o+ng
> >die^.n cu?a tu+`ng ta^.p ddoa`n trong giai ddoa.n li.ch su+? na`y thi` co'
> >to^`n ta.i .
> >
> >> Na(m to^.c Ho^` dde^` la` bo^.
> >> pha^.n ca^'u tha`nh cu?a TQ nga`y nay. Tha^.m chi' mo^ ta? li.ch su+?
> >> TQ ma` cho Nam To^'ng la` Ta`u, Kim la` ngoa.i bang la` thie^n le^.ch.
> >
> >  Chi? thie^n le^.ch trong today viewpoint (hay i't nha^'t tu+`
> >early 20th century). Trong ca'i nhi`n ddu+o+ng tho+`i, cha('c cha('n pha?i
> >co' su+. kha'c bie^.t. DDo+n gia?n la` vi` ngu+o+`i Kim va` ngu+o+`i
> >To^'ng kho^ng cu`ng gio^'ng. Nhu+ng ne^'u ta du`ng ca'i nhi`n cu?a
> >ngu+o+`i Ta`u nga`y nay (con cha'u cu?a ca? hai) thi` su+. thie^n le^.ch
> >kho^ng ne^n co'.
> >
> >> Theo to^i sau na`y vie^'t la.i su+? TQ ca^`n kha'ch quan
> >> cho ra(`ng Kim cu~ng la` mo^.t bo^. pha^.n ca^'u tha`nh cu?a TQ va`
> >> cuo^.c chie^'n tranh Kim To^'ng chi? la` hi`nh tha`nh nu+o+'c Ta`u
> >> hie^.n dda.i y nhu+ Chu dda'nh Thu+o+ng, Thu+o+ng dda'nh Ha. va^.y.
> >
> >   Regards
> >
> >
> 
> 
>