Re: Chi'nh ta? tie^'ng Vie^.t

["Hoa Nguyen" <thanhhuy@email.msn.com>]

Hi ba'c An,

> Chua^?n chi'nh ta? la` 1 va^'n dde^` mang ti'nh li.ch su+?, cho ne^n ta
>ddu+`ng tra'ch ca'c cu. to^? nha` ta sao kho^ng dda+.t chua^?n tie^'ng
>Vie^.t ga^`n vo+'i ca'ch no'i cu?a da^n SG hay Trung bo^./

Ba'c no'i ro~ y' tre^n ddu+o+.c kho^ng, the^' na`o la` "mang ti'nh li.ch
su+?". Ke^? ra  no'i chung chung thi` co'  su+. vie^.c na`o xa?y ra , va`
ke'o da`i trong mo^.t tho+`i gian ma` la.i kho^ng "mang ti'nh li.ch su+?".
To^i  tha^'y kho^ng ca^`n thie^'t pha?i nha^'n ma.nh "ti'nh li.ch su+?" hay
ti'nh chi'nh tri. o+? dda^y. Tro+? la.i ca'i nhi`n bi`nh thu+o+`ng cu?a
chuye^.n va(n ho.c hay  ngo^n ngu+~. Khi ai kho^ng no'i /vie^'t ddu'ng da^'u
"nga~" thi` kho^ng co' nghi~a la` co' y' cho^'ng ddo^'i la.i vu`ng hay
ngu+o+`i no'i/ vie^'t ddu+o+.c ca'i thanh ddo'.
Nhu+ng no'i ve^` li.ch su+? thi` cha('c ba'c cu~ng ne^n bie^'t kho^ng co'
cu. to^? na`o cu?a chu'ng ta tham du+., i't ra la` tru+.c tie^'p,  va`o
vie^.c sa'ng ta.o ra chu+~ Vie^.t cho chu'ng ta du`ng hie^.n nay. Ca'c gia'o
si~ Bo^` Dda`o Nha dda~ du`ng ma^~u tu+. Latin  dde^? ghi a^m tie^'ng Vie^.t
(Dda`ng Trong) dde^? ho.c, dde^? nho+', va `chu+a bie^'t du`ng dde^'n ca'c
da^'u ghi ca'c thanh vi` ddo' la` ddie^`u xa la. vo+'i ngo^n ngu+~ cu?a ho.
Dde^'n na(m 1651  ca'c ba`i gia?ng cu?a Alexandre de Rhodes (Dda('c Lo^.)
ddu+o+.c in o+? Bo^` vo+'i thu+' chu+~ mo+'i ddo' co' ca'c da^'u, nhu+ng
kho^ng dda^`y ddu?. Chu+~ Vie^.t co' hi`nh da.ng "ga^`n gio^'ng" nhu+ nga`y
nay la` tu+` na(m 1838, gia'm mu.c Taberd va` linh mu.c Phan V(n Minh  soa.n
tha?o hai cuo^'n "Tu+. ddie^?n An Nam- Latinh" va` "Tu+. Ddie^? Latinh-
Annam" bo? ddi nhie^`u ca'ch ghi a^m ra^'t la.cu?a tu+` ddie^?n tru+o+'c,
cha('c la` dda~ ghi ca'ch pha't a^m tie^'ng no'i cu?a vu`ng ddi.a phu+o+ng
na`o ddo'. Nga`y 6-4-1878, chi'nh quye^`n Pha'p ta.i Nam ky` ban ha`nh nghi.
ddi.nh cha'nh thu+'c du`ng chu+~ quo^'c ngu+~ trong co^ng va(n, tru+o+`ng
ho.c.
Ddoa.n du+o+'i dda^y ba'c vie^'t the^' na`o ddo' to^i cu~ng kho^ng hie^?u
ro~  la('m, ne^n ne^'u ba`n the^m ca`ng cha(?ng ddi dde^'n dda^u. To^i chi?
muo^'n nha('c la.i mo^.t ddie^?m to^i dda~ne^u va` tin la` ddu'ng. Tie^'ng
Vie^.t vie^'t nhu+ nga`y nay la` do ca'c gia'o si~ Ta^y phu+o+ng du+.a va`o
ca'ch pha't a^m cu?a ca'c ti?nh mie^`n Ba('c, co' the^? la` tu+` ca'c vu`ng
theo Dda.o ven bie^?n, nhu+ng cu~ng co' cha^m chu+o+'c vo+'i ca'ch pha't a^m
o+? vu`ng kha'c. Lu'c ddo', Ha` No^.i kho^ng co`n la` trung ta^m chi'nh tri.
trong nu+o+'c nu+~a, do ddo' vie^.c lu+.ac cho.n ca'ch pha't a^m o+? mie^`n
Ba('c (chu+a cha('c la` cu?a Ha` No^.i) kho^ng ha`m mo^.t du.ng y' chi'nh
tri. na`o. Ra^'t co' kha? na(ng ddo' la` su+. ti`nh co+`, va` ke^' ddo' la`
do gia'o da^n vu`ng ddo' kha' ddo^ng dde^? co' nhu ca^`u ca^`n dde^'n mo^.t
thu+' chu+~ mo+'i thay cho chu+~ Ha'n, No^m ma`ngu+ da^n VN va` ca'c co^'
dda.o Ta6y phu+o+ng dde^`u kho^ng tho^ng tha.o. To^i kho^ng co' no'i nho+`
ddo' ma` Ha` No^.i se~ cao quy' ho+n vu`ng kha'c, vi` chu+a cha('c Ha` No^.i
dda~ ddo'ng go'p gi` nhie^`u ho+n vu`ng kha'c trong  vie^.c sa'ng ta.o ra
chu+~ "quo^'c ngu~+". Nhu+ng ai cu~ng co^ng nha^.n, vie^.c la`m cho chu+~
quo^'c ngu+~ pho^? bie^'n ro^.ng ra~i, lo+'n ma.nh le^n va` tro+? tha`nh
chu+~ vie^'t mo+'i cho da^n to^.c ta la.i la` do co^ng lao cu?a ca'c nha`
va(n, nha` ba'o o+? Ha` No^.i nhie^`u ho+n o+? dda^u he^'t. Vie^.c la`m ddo'
dda~ xa?y ra tru+o+'c na(m 1945.
Chu+~ Vie^.t cu~ng nhu+ chu+~ mo+'i pha't trie^?n sau na`y cho da^n Hmong,
chi? la` du`ng dde^? ghi a^m theo mo^.t ca'ch rie^ng bie^.t tho^i. Nhie^`u
mu.c su+ Vie^.t nam dda~ "sa'ng ta.o" ra mo^.t (hay va`i) thu+' chu+~ vie^'t
cho ddo^`ng ba`o thie^?u so^' o+? cao nguye^n Trung pha^`n tru+o+'c na(m
75. Va` ba^y gio+` to^i tin trong nu+o+'c va^~n co' nhu+~ng vie^.c la`m
tu+o+ng tu+. dde^? giu'p ddo^`ng ba`o mie^`n ru+`ng nu'i thoa't na.n mu`
chu+~. Nguye^n ta('c chung va^~n la` du+.a va`o ca'ch ghi a^m tie^'ng no'i.
Nho+` the^' ma` chu+~ Vie^.t ta mo+'i "de^~ ho.c." dde^'n va^.y.
To^i la^'y the^m thi' du.. Tru+o+'c kia trong Nam vie^'t chu+~ "quo^'c" la`
'qua^'c" vi` ghi  theo a^m no'i o+? mie^`n Nam. Dda^y la` su+. ghi a^m ga^`n
ddu'ng nha^'t. Nhu+ng ba^y gio+` thi` do nhu ca^`u "tho^'ng nha^'t chu+~
vie^'t" hay quen du`ng, ngu+o+`i trong Nam dde^`u vie^'t la` "quo^'c" nhu+ng
va^~n ddo.c la` "qua^'c".
N.H

To^i quan
>nie^.m chua^?n ngo^n ngu+~ nhu+ 1 ca'i co.c ba'o  ddu+o+`ng, ca'i co.c
>ddo' la`m ba+`ng cement Ha` no^.i hay SG hay Trung bo^. kho^ng quan
>tro.ng, ma` ddie^?m quan tro.ng  ddo' la` co+ so+? chung cho vie^.c
>communication cu?a da^n ta o+? kha+'p ca'c mie^`n. Co.c la` cement Ha`
>no^.i cu~ng cha+?ng la`m ngu+o+`i HN cao quy' ho+n ngu+o+`i nhu+~ng
>mie^`n kha'c va` ngu+o+.c la.i. (Vie^'t nhu+ the^' na`y kho^ng co'
>nghi~a to^i cho tie^'ng Vie^.t chua^?n hie^.n nay la` tie^'ng (gio.ng)
>Ha` no^.i, so vo+'i chua^?n, gio.ng Ha` no^.i va^~n co' kho^'i ddie^`u
>ca^`n ba`n )
> Chi'nh ta? tuy la` ky' a^m, nhu+ng ne^'u tu`y tie^.n thi` da^n Trung
>Nam ba+'c se~ co' bao nhie^u he^. ky' a^m. Vi` va^.y vie^.c co' 1
>chua^?n chi'nh ta? la` ta^'t ye^'u. To^i tin ra+`ng da^n Anh hay Me~o
>du` o+? ca'c vung kha'c nhau (cha+'c cha+'n co' su+. pha't a^m kha'c
>nhau) nhu+ng dde^`u cu`ng chung 1 ca'ch vie^'t chi'nh ta?.
> Trong tie^'ng Vie^.t co' mo^.t so^' tu+` pha't a^m kha'c da^'u ma`
>va^~n ddu+o+.c hie^?u nhu+ nhau(du` nghi~a go^'c kha'c nhau) nhu+ ba'c
>Ho`a dda~ la^'y vi' du. DDa so^' hay ha^`u he^'t nhu+~ng tu+` na`y la`
>tu+` Ha'n Vie^.t, do vie^.c hie^?u chu+a tha^'u dda'o ve^` ca'c tu+` co'
>go^'c tu+` Ha'n ngu+~ ne^n da^n ta du`ng nha^`m la^u tha`nh quen hoa+.c
>do su+. lie^n tu+o+?ng dde^'n nhu+~ng tra.ng tha'i, ddo^.ng ta'c ma`
>tu+` na`y mo^ ta? co' lie^n quan ma^.t thie^'t vo+'i nhau, la^u da^`n
>da^~n dde^'n su+. ddo^`ng ho'a ngu+~ nghi~a. DDo' kho^ng pha?i ddo+n
>thua^`n do ca'ch pha't a^m nhu+ ba'c Ho`a nghi~.
> Va^'n dde^` tie^'p la` ba'c Ho`a hie^?u nha^`m ca'c vi' du. ve^`
>ngu+o+`i nu+o+'c ngoa`i gio?i tie^'ng Vie^.t ma` ba'c ddu+a dde^'n
>vie^.c mo+`i ngu+o;`i nu+o+'c ngoa`i da.y tie^'ng Vie^.t cho ngu+o+`i
>Vie^.t. Theo to^i nghi~, ca'c vi' du. ma` chu'ng ta dda~ ke^? trong ca'c
>msg dda~ posted chi? no'i le^n 1 ddie^`u la` co' 1 bo^. pha^.n ngu+o+`i
>Vie^.t ca`ng nga`y ca`ng ke'm tie^'ng Vie^.t, chu+' ngu+o+`i nu+o+'c
>ngoa`i du` gio?i dde^'n dda^u cu~ng kho^ng the^? gio?i tie^'ng Vie^.t
>ho+n ngu+o+`i Vie^.t (theo nghi~a chung), vi` ngo^n ngu+~ kho^ng ta'ch
>ro+`i va+n ho'a, ta^.p qua'n, lo^'i so^'ng va` ca'ch suy nghi~.
>
>Hoa Nguyen wrote:
>>
>> Cha`o ba'c Hoa`ng Linh va` ca'c ba'c,
>> Va^'n dde^` na`y ddu'ng la` mo^'i quan ta^m lo+'n cu?a nhie^`u ngu+o+`i,
va`
>> co' cha('c la` dda~ ddu+o+.c gia?i quye^'t o^?n tho?a  chu+a, hay va^~n
>> tru+o+'c sao thi` sau va^.y. To^i xin go'p y' vo+'i "ca'c" ba'c ve^`
nhu+~ng
>> ddie^?m  dda~ ne^u trong nhie^`u mesg (ne^'u to^i co`n nho+' ddu+o+.c
>> he^'t).
>> Tru+o+'c he^'t to^i nghi~ phe'p chi'nh ta? (vie^'t cho ddu'ng chu+~) chi?
>> la` "convention" nhu+ chu+~ ba'c Huy D du`ng . Ddie^`u na`y du+o+`ng nhu+
>> tha^'y ro~ nha^'t trong tie^'ng Anh, no'i mo^.t dda(`ng vie^'t mo^.t ne?o
do
>> ca'ch pha't a^m thay ddo^?i nhie^`u theo tho+`i gian hay do pha't a^m sai
>> khi vay mu+o+.n ngo^n ngu+~ kha'c, va` tha^'y ca? trong tie^'ng Ta`u
vie^'t
>> ra^'t "tu`y tie^.n" ma` va^~n pha?i theo ddu'ng vi` co' nhie^`u gio.ng
ddo.c
>> ddi.a phu+o+ng kha'c nhau qua'. Nhu+ng ca'i convention ddo' dda~ ca(n
cu+'
>> va`o dda^u ma` co'. Rie^ng trong "chu+~ quo^'c ngu+~" to^i tha^'y la` do:
>> 1/ Ca'ch pha't a^m ( ca(n cu+' theo da^'u gio.ng mie^`n Ba('c)
>> 2/ Quen du`ng (nhie^`u tie^'ng kho^ng bie^'t ta.i sao la.i vie^'t nhu+
>> va^.y)
>> 3/ Ddo^i khi co' pha^n va^n thi` du+.a va`o tu+` nguye^n (thu+o`ng la`
go^'c
>> tie^'ng Ha'n Vie^.t).
>> Co' the^? co`n nhie^`u nu+~a, nhu+ng cu+' ta.m va^.y ddi. Va` kho+?i
dda^`u
>> ca^u chuye^.n to^i dda~ ne^u ra va^'n dde^` "ho?i nga~" tu+` chuye^.n
ke^?
>> mo+'i nghe nhu+ ky` cu.c, vo^ ly' : ngu+o+`i ngoa.i quo^'c co' the^?
gio?i
>> tie^'ng Vie^.t ho+n ngu+o+`i Vie^.t, tha^.m chi' co`n ne^n mo+`i da.y
>> tie^'ng Vie^.t cho ngu+o+`i Vie^.t trong nu+o+'c.
>> Tha^.t ra "chuye^.n ky` cu.c" ddo' la` chuye^.n co' tha^.t. Mo^.t chu+~
>> Vie^.t ma` nay ta cho pha?i vie^'t the^' na`y mo+'i ddu'ng, the^' kia la`
>> sai la` vi` ta du+.a va`o chu+~ "quo^'c ngu+~" dda~ du+o+.c ca'c co^'
dda.o
>> ngoa.i quo^'c dda(.t ra va` da.y cho ta dda^'y tho^i. Ne^'u bie^'t va^.y
>> thi` nie^`m tu+. ha`o cu?a ai vie^'t ddu'ng chi'nh ta? co' the^? bi.
gia?m
>> ddi va`i pha^`n :-).
>> Ca'c vi. thu+`a sai cu?a toa` Vatican dda~ "ghi a^m" tie^'ng Vie^.t vo+'i
>> da^'u gio.ng cu?a da^n mie^`n na`o ddo', va` chi? do ti`nh co+` ddo' la`
>> mie^`n Ba('c tho^i, cho ne^n ngu+o+`i mie^`n Ba('c cu~ng ddu+`ng ne^n
qua'
>> ha~nh die^.n la` vie^'t ra^'t ddu'ng "chu+~ quo^'c ngu+~" :-). To^i
ddoa'n
>> the^m la` tuy tie^'ng Vie^.t ddu+o+.c no'i nhu+ the^' ddo' o+? mie^`n
Ba('c
>> nhu+ng kho^ng pha?i thuo^.c vu`ng xu+' dda.o ven bie^?n nhu+ Tha'i Bi`nh
,
>> Ha?i Du+o+ng vi` kho^ng tha^'y sai ca'c phu. a^m "N" vo+'i "L", va` co'
>> the^? la` thuo^.c khoa?ng vu`ng Thanh Ho'a vi` tha^'y ddu+o+.c pha^n
bie^.t
>> ra`nh re~ GI vo+'i D , va`  R nu+~a, S vo+'i X... (ngoa`i chuye^.n nho?
nhu+
>> da^'u gio.ng ho?i vo+'i nga~) (O+? cho^~ na`y to^i "gia? tu+o+?ng" cho
vui
>> tho^i, vi` to^i kho^ng pha^n bie^.t ddu+o+.c gio.ng Ba('c o+? ca'c vu`ng
>> kha'c nhau). Khi ngu+o+`i Vie^.t  ddi da^`n ve^` phi'a Nam tu+` khi co'
ai
>> ddo' "mang gu+o+m ddi mo+? nu+o+'c", thi` tie^'ng Vie^.t na(`m trong
ha`nh
>> ly' ddu+o+.c mang theo dda~ pha tro^.n tu+. nhie^n vo+'i ngo^n ngu+~ cu?a
>> ca'c da^n to^.c kha'c (Cha`m, Mie^n, Ta`u...) kho^ng co' ca'c a^m va`
da^'u
>> gio.ng nhu+ o+? mie^`n Ba('c. Cu~ng co' the^? do nhie^`u nguye^n nha^n
kha'c
>> (to^i la.i kho^ng tin do o+? nu+o+'c uo^'ng hay, phong tho^?, tho+`i
tie^'t)
>> ca'ch pha't a^m tie^'ng Vie^.t thay ddo^?i da^`n, da^'u gio.ng ho?i nga~
>> ma^'t ddi, kho^ng pha^n bie^.t ddu+o+.c phu. a^m dda^`u va` cuo^'i, nhu+
ta
>> dda~ bie^'t. Thay ddo^?i ca? thanh a^m giu+~a nu+~a, nhu+ sinh va` sanh,
>> Tra`ng va` Tru+o+`ng, phu'c va` phu+o+'c.
>> To^i kho^ng no'i la` "ba^'t co^ng" nhu+ ba'c Huy D, nhu+ng ro~ la` ma^'y
cha
>> co^' sa'ng ta.o ra chu+~ Vie^.t ba^y gio+` kho^ng co^ng ba(`ng vo+'i
nhie^`u
>> vu`ng trong nu+o+'c, nhu+ co' ngu+o`i mie^`n Ba('c dda~ kho^ng co^ng
ba(`ng
>> vo+'i hai nha^n va^.t li.ch su+? Dda`ng Trong khi "ddo^?i te^n" cu?a ho.:
>> Vo~ Ta'nh tha`nh Vu~ Ti'nh, Ngo^ Tu`ng Cha^u tha`nh Ngo^ To`ng Chu.
Nhie^`u
>> tie^'ng Vie^.t o+? nhu+~ng vu`ng kha'c bi. ma^'t ddi (kha' oan uo^?ng).
>> Ne^'u nhu+ "da^n ta" (Trung va` Nam) dde^`u no'i "ma^`ng ra(ng", "ma^`ng
>> a(n" thi` co' ne^n da.y la`pha?i vie^'t  "ma^`n chi" mo+'i la` ddu'ng,
khi
>> chu+a ca('t nghi~a ddu+o+.c ta.i sao la.i pha?i vie^'t va^.y ? The^m
nu+~a
>> ne^'u vie^'t "li.nh" cho+' kho^ng la` "le^.nh", "cha'nh" ma` kho^ng pha?i
>> la` "chi'nh"..., thi` co' go.i la` sai chi'nh ta? kho^ng.
>> Tro+? la.i ca^u chuye^.n da^'u gio.ng ho?i nga~ thi` to^i tha^'y su+.
thay
>> ddo^?i da^'u gio.ng va^~n co' xa?y ra trong tru+o+`ng ho+.p kha'c, va`
>> ddu+o+.c "vui ve? hay tha?n nhie^n" cha^'p nha^.n, cho+' kho^ng coi la`
>> vie^'t sai chi'nh ta? . Thi' du :
>> 1/ an "ti~nh" vo+'i thanh "ti.nh"  hay an "ti.nh" vo+'i thanh "ti~nh".
du`ng
>> da^'u nga~ hay na(.ng gi` cu~ng co' sao dda^u.
>> 2/ na^'m "mo^`" vo+'i ngo^i "mo^." thi` da^'u na`o (huye^`n hay na(ng)
>> mo+'i la` ddu'ng o+? dda^y ?
>> To'm la.i, khi vie^'t "cu~ng" hay "dda~" vo+'i da^'u nga~ to^i cho chi?
la`
>> chuye^.n ti`nh co+` (cu?a lic.h su+? truye^`n dda.o TCG  tho^i :-)).
>> N. Ho`a
>> (chu? tru+o+ng la`m chu+~ vie^'t va` cuo^.c ddo+`i gia?n di. ddi :-) ).
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hoang Linh <linhpriv@salamon.baralib.hu>
>>
>> >To^i cho la ca'i te^. NO'I
>> la^~n lo^.n ho?i (?), nga~ (~) co' the^? to^`n ta.i tu+` xu+a (o+? mie^`n
>> Trung
>> va` Nam cha(?ng ha.n), nhu+ng na.n VIE^'T sai tu+' tung (do vo^ y', do
tho'i
>> quen hoa(.c co' the^? do cha(?ng bie^'t thu+.c su+. la ho?i hay nga~
>> nu+~a... :-)) co' le~ mo+'i "pha't trie^?n trong tho+`i gian ga^`n dda^y
>> tho^i
>> (nha^'t la` o+? ngoa`i na`y).
>>
>> Di~ nhie^n la` "nhie^`u  khi vie^'t tie^'ng Vie^.t kho^ng co' da^'u gi`
>> he^'t...
>> va^~n ddo.c hie^?u ddu+o+.c", nhu+ng cu~ng co' khi vie^'t sai ho?, nga~
>> la`m sai ca? ca^u va(n. Va? la.i, ne^'u the^' thi` nghi~ ra 2 da^'u ho?i,
>> nga~
>> pha^n bie^.t la`m gi`? :-))
>>
>> HLinh (chu? tru+o+ng vie^'t ddu'ng ho?i, nga~)
>
>--
>DVAn
>http://ann.phys.wani.osaka-u.ac.jp/~an/