Re: Ba'ch Vie^.t - Ly' La~o

[Hong Lam Vu <vuh000@goofy.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de>]

Hi ba'c Vie^.t,

Ca^`n pha?i pha^n bie^.t 2 ma(.t kha'c nhau tuy co' lie^n quan dde^'n
nhau: diffusion of Chinese culture and diffusion of Chinese people.

Thailand can serve as an example: a few Thai aristocrat was able to impose
their culture upon a majority of Mon-Khmer origines.
Anthropologically, the Siamese are close to the Khmers. But culturally,
they are close to other Thai peoples in South China or North Vietnam.

In Vietnam there is a trend of Mongoloidization which has been lasting
through the history. Streams of people originated from Chinese territory
has been emigrating century to century to Vietnam. These folks are not
only ethnic Chinese (Han) but also Thai-, Hmong-Yao- and
Tibeto-Birmanese-speekers. Differed in their languages, they share an
anthropological common denominator: they bear more Mongoloid elements than
the aboriginals.

Anthropological researches pointed out that Dongson-time's Giaochians
consisted of both Indonesian (an anthropological terminology, not to
confuse with habitants of today Indonesia) and Mongoloid elements. The
proportion between the two groups was about half-half with a tendency of
Mongoloidization. Today's Vietnamese are much more Mongoloid than
Indonesian.

Culturally, the Vietnamese become so sinized that it is quite hardly to
find out whether they share more common elements with the Southaest Asian
or with the Chinese.
 

> Anh que^n no'i ve^` Trie^.u DDa`. To^i ddo^`ng y' vo+'i quan ddie^?m cu?a 
> ca'c su+? gia co^? dda.i tu+` Le^ Va(n Hu+u to+'i Le^ Hy xem Trie^.u DDa` 
> la` vua Vie^.t. Ca'i lua^.n ddie^?m cu?a Ngo^ Thi` Si~  ve^` go^'c ga'c 
> cu?a Trie^.u DDa` o+? Ha` BBa('c dde^? cho^'ng la.i chuye^.n na`y tha^.t 
> ky` cu.c. Pha^`n lo+'n vua Chu'a o+? VN dde^`u co' go^'c Ta`u nhu+ anh 
> dda~ no'i, the^' thi` ta.i sao la.i loa.i Trie^.u DDa` ra.

I agree with you in considering Trieu Da as a Viet king. But I think
that this issue is less relevant for history as a discipline than for
politics. For instance, you can revise the history, declare Trieu Da to
have been a Vietnamese emperor, and raise a territorial claim for Luong
Quang. For a historian, it does not matter whether Trieu Da was a
Vietnamese king or not. The fact that he reigned the Giaochians from Phien
Ngung (today Canton) is enuff.

> 
>   To^i nghe no'i co' ngu+o+`i ddu+a ra y' kie^'n ve^` ma(.t hi`nh da'ng
> nhie^`u ngu+o+`i Vie^.t ma('t hai mi' to, coi gio^'ng ngu+o+`i vu`ng 
> Cha^n ddi.nh Ha` Ba('c ho+n la` ngu+o+`i Nam Trung Hoa.

Y' o^ng na`y la` nhie^`u ddo^`ng ba`o ta la` con cha'u ddo^`ng huo+ng cu.
Trie^.u Dda` chu+' gi`? Co' the^? la('m. Tui co' ddo.c dda^u ddo' no'i sau
khi Nam vie^.t bi. nha` Ha'n bi`nh ddi.nh, ho. ha`ng quye^'n thuo^.c cu?a
cu. ch.ay ca? sang Giao Chi? Nhu+ng so^' na`y du` co' thi` cu~ng cha(?ng
the^? nhie^`u dde^'n mu+'c dominant. Theo tui 1 nguye^n nha^n la`m cho
nguo+`i ta`u kho^ng bao gio+` ddo^`ng ho'a dduo+.c da^n Giao chi? la` vi`
ngay tu+` truo+'c khi nha` Ha'n go^`m thuo^.c nuo+'c ta, da^n ba?n di.a
o+? do^`ng ba(`ng Ba('c bo^. dda~ ra^'t ddo^ng. Cuo^.c census ho^`i dda^`u
Co^ng nguye^n che'p trong Ha^.u Ha'n thu+ cho tha^'y qua^.n Giao chi?
(Ba('c bo^.) co' ga^`n 1 trie^.u kha^?u, trong khi toa`n bo^. Giao cha^u
bao go^`m Ba('c bo^., Ba('c Trung bo^., Qua?ng Ddo^ng, Qua?ng TA^y, ha?i
Nam chi? co' qua~ng 1,5 trie^.u kha^?u.

Nguye^n nha^n nu+~a la` nguo+`i tu+` Ta`u qua: 1) o^ ho+.p, thuo^.c
nhie^`u to^.c da^n kha'c nhau, trong ddo' nhie^`u nguo+`i cu~ng chung
go^'c Ba'ch Vie^.t (Nam Man) vo+'i da^n ta, 2) ho. sang theo nhie^`u
ddo+.t kha'c nhau, va` be^n ca.nh ma^u thua^~n giu+~a da^n Ha'n va`
non-Han co`n co' ma^u thua^~n giu+~a da^n "sang truo+'c" vo+'i da^n "sang
sau".

Chuye^,n ta.i sao trong ca'c ddi.a phup+ng Ta`u chi? co' mo^~i An Nam
kho^ng huop+'ng ve^` Trung nguye^n, ta'ch ra kha(?ng ddi.nh mo^.t identity
rie^ng, cu~ng ra^'t thu' vi., co' le~ pha?i mo+? 1 ca'i thread mo+'i ba`n
da`i da`i mo+'i vui.

> 
>    Ho. Ly' nhie^`u o+? VN va`o Tru+o+'c Ly' Bi' theo to^i la` du+o+'i 
> tho+`i DDu+o+`ng, nhie^`u To^ng tha^'t ddu+o+.c cu+? la`m Giao Cha^u DDo^ 
> Ho^. mang ca? to^ng to^.c ra va` kho^ng ve^` nu+~a.

Tui thi` kho^ng tin to^n tha^'t nha` Dduo+`ng (ho. Ly') nhie^`u dde^'n
the^' va` chuo^.ng ca'i xu+' no'ng nu+.c phuo+ng nam na`y dde^'n the^'.

BTW, cha con Ly' Uye^n, Ly' The^' Da^n (sa'ng la^.p ra nha` Dduo+`ng) 
cu~ng cha(?ng pha?i Ta`u chi'nh go^'c gi` cho cam. Sa'ch Le monde chinois
cu?a Jacques Gernet ba?o ho. Ly' na`y la` demi-Turc. Nha^n dda^y qua?ng
ca'o cho cu. Gernet. Sa'ch na`y vie^'t ra^'t kha', co' di.ch sang mo.i
thu+' tie^'ng lo+'n, ai thi'ch ti`m hie^?u Ta`u ne^n co' ma` tra cu+'u.

> 
>   Con cha'u (ca? To^ng to^.c)O^ng Ma.c DDi~nh Chi va`o cuo^'i ddo+`i Tra^`n 
> ddo'ng go'p pha^`n lo+'n va`o co^ng cuo^.c pha' hoa.i va(n ho'a Vie^.t 
> cu?a Tru+o+ng Phu. 
> 

Ca'i na`y em chu+a nghe, ba'c ba?o ky~ ho+n vo+'i.

Cheers,
La^m